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Did Derrick Rose Deserve The 2011 MVP?

Danny Clase 

Hey team,

I was listening to Dan Le Ba Tards show and he made a great case for something i have been thinking for years. The case being that D Rose MVP year is very questionable. Do you agree?


Stan Talouis 
This is super late but I don’t really agree with Derrick Rose not deserving the MVP. That’s not to say there wasn’t anyone else that did deserve it but I understand why he got it. He was the best player on the best team in the NBA. You could make the case for Lebron but Wade took away a lot of those votes because he was a candidate. It’s sort of like in 2006 when a Met probably should have won the MVP but none of them (Wright, Beltran and Delgado) won because they all took votes away from each other.
Also if you took Rose off that Chicago team, would they have won half as many games? Remember, the 2011 team wasn’t as good as the teams of the last couple of years that managed to win games without him. The 2011 Heat team might have won 40 games without Lebron. The 2011 Bulls team without Rose maybe wins 35.

Danny Clase 

But the Bulls have won alot of games without D Rose the last couple of years. Lebron was a better player that year and so was Dwight Howard. Of those 3 players i think Rose had a team that was more complete and built around him like Iversons sixers teams of yester year. Also D Rose was 25 ppg 8 Apg and 4Rb per game that year while Lebron was 27 7 and 7 in addition to shooting a slightly higher percentage. Dwight was 23 ppg 14 rb 2 blocks and 1 steal per game shooting 57 %, yea hes a big man so thats skewed.

I just think this was the decision backlash and people HATED Lebron so the hometown hero was rewarded for doing what Lebron didnt and staying home. That year the narrative of taking a team to a championship was lauded. Rose even gained cool points for not trying to lure him to Chicago. Rose was spectacular but the culture and climate gave him that MVP.

Stan Talouis 
The Bulls have won games since then without Rose but I don’t think that years team would’ve been as good without him because no one was ready to step up and play well without him. I don’t disagree with you about any of those points but do any of them make Derrick Rose any less deserving of the award?

Ed Easton Jr. 

Rose’s impact during the 2011 season was very clear as the Bulls relied on him way more than they do now. I don’t believe they were good enough to make the conference finals without him due to the different personnel. A young Noah and underperforming Ben Gordon could not carry the load as the personel currently for Chicago can.

I think we need to give credit where it is due and respect his award. The numbers and impact were outstanding for a “healthy” D Rose in 2011. The team was all about defense and he was their only scoring option for most of the season…


Danny Clase 
The greatest vindication for Lebron came in the conference finals when Lebron completely took Derrick Rose out the game.


Stan Talouis 
But it’s not a “Who’s More Talented Award” it’s Most Valuable Player. Doesn’t Lebron locking up Rose kind of prove that without Rose, the Bulls were doomed to fail. You could make the argument that if Lebron had been held in check, the Heat still have a shot with a healthy Wade and Bosh.

Danny Clase 
I disagree with the latter entirely. Bulls still had Noah, Deng and Korver at peak levels….also Asik. When talent is combined with statistical data the ”whos more talented” proposition is voided. Lebron had better stats. Dwight stats also to. Dwight had a great playoffs start but Hawks gang guarded him daring everyone else to beat him, lol that was Super Saiyan Larry Drew

Lincoln Ricketts 
Rose was the new talent that was doing things in the league that no one was doing (Besides Westbrook athletically). Rose was the main cog in that Bulls machine that made everything work. Rose’s team was in 1st place and he had MVP numbers while closing out games. Plus narrative plays a huge part in MVP voting, so while LeBron had great numbers, he also had two hall of famers playing with him and the “villain” role was a upon him. It’s kind of simple to see why Rose won and deserved that MVP.

Danny Clase 
This narrative stuff should play no role especially when Lebron has proven he will get his numbers in any situation. Rose was not better that year statistically.

Stan Talouis 
The only way that’s going to happen is if we change the voting system. Writers vote and they’ll have their biases. It would be impossible to tell someone to vote for MVP without them taking into consideration certain narratives and situations. To crown someone simply for their stats negates what the award means. If Player A finishes with 25, 8 and 5 while leading his team to the best record and Player B finishes with 27, 7 and 7 but had less wins and a more talented supporting cast shouldn’t Player A deserve MVP just as much as Player B? Why should he be penalized because he scored less points per game?

Danny Clase 
Were acting like D Rose team won the east and went to the championship lol. Im not penalizing Lebron for being on a team with 2 hall of famers, we all know he would have gotten those stats regardless.

Danny Clase 
Also this is my final thought Inline image 1

Lincoln Ricketts 
We are not, we are speaking on behalf of the regular season in which he was dominate in and took his team to the first seed regardless if Bron could have done his numbers anywhere else. Let’s not reach into the postseason because this award is based on the merits of the regular season.

Danny Clase 
I don’t think the Bulls being a one seed in the east is that big a deal. The Heat were just put together even had a 20 win streak i believe which is probably harder to do. I mention the playoffs because it proves what the stats already say. Also if we are looking for the narrative of a player carrying a team that title goes to Dwight that season. He basically was the Magic defense. I would bet the farm that if D Rose would be removed from the Bulls in 2011 they’d still be a 5 seed or better while the Magic would be lottery.

Lincoln Ricketts 
Fact check, their 20 game streak were the following year, the year Bron won the MVP

Danny Clase 
I know that, thats why i said I believe but that year in 2010 they won 20 games at some point if it wasn’t straight 20 it was something like 20 out of 21 games after starting 9-8.

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KIRS Discussion – Fans Jumping Ship
9 messages

Danny Clase 

 

Hey Guys,
How do you feel about this “Seinfeld” clip, its a commentary about being a fan.


Stan Talouis 
20+ years later that clip is so relevant. I think most people are guilty of “rooting for clothes” and it’s a sign of the times. I know a girl who knows basketball really well and has been watching Ray Allen since he was at UConn. As you can imagine because she’s a huge Ray Allen fan she’s been a fan of the Bucks, Sonics, Celtics, Heat and whatever team he signs with this year. It wouldn’t surprise me if there was a Lincoln Railsplitters jersey in her closet either. Anyway, is she any more or less of a fan because she roots for one player no matter where he plays? We see it all over the place though. It’s hard to call it a problem because before free agency, these players were basically indentured servants to one franchise and one owner. I will say though, there’s something to be said about a player that comes up with one team and stays with them his entire career. Those guys tend to get more respect.

Danny Clase 
Word, I think fans are blindly loyal to teams simply cause thats where they grew up or watched as a child. 20 years isnt that long ago but i still think most fans just love there team for reasons that are kinda fickle. There are some outliers but lets be real most fans are a supporting where they grew up. I think thats fickle. Biggest example is how Lebron can easily play out Cleveland by just saying ”Im from Cleveland”. Thats so weird to me. As i have been a fan of the NBA my whole life….. in my mid 20s i have come to think that every team should be appreciated thats what makes the league run. Wouldnt it be cool if we rooted for teams that matched us. Like what if i was a die hard Trail Blazer fan because long twos really make me happy lol.
 

Stan Talouis 
What counts as a fickle reason for rooting for a team though? I don’t think that rooting for a team because of your hometown is a bad thing. That seems like more of a tradition thing to me. I’m a Knicks fan because my dad was a Knicks fan, and I’d imagine my son (if I have one) might be one too. On the other side of the coin, I’m a Miami Hurricanes fan because I started watching college football on my own when I was around 8 or 9 and just fell in love with the team. So I can see both sides of the argument.

Danny Clase 
Thats what makes you cool Stan…..your a Miami Hurricane fan. Its hilarious lol. You being a Knick fan just makes to much sense.
 

Stan Talouis 
I have a bigger issue with people jumping on bandwagons when a team is good then fans that jump ship when a team is bad. It’s essentially the same thing though lol…to be fair, if there was a good college football team in the New York Metro area, I’d probably root for them. I’m not rooting for Rutgers or UConn and Columbia sucks. Plus, how can I not root for the team that basically invented swagger?

Danny Clase 
Me and Stan basically just talk to each other on this lol does anyone else have an opinion?

Claude Laroche
I guess for me personally being a Knicks, Jets, and Mets fan are just what I can easily identify with. Even when rooting for Michigan State, I think since I went there it represents a portion of me. I’ve always been a fan of specific players, but at the end of the day I always wanted them to play for my favorite teams.
  I think this whole bouncing around to various different teams shows a lack of loyalty. What happened to the good ol days where we would stick with our teams through thick and thin and bask in the glory of watching our team go from terrible to a contender? I get more gratification from that then out of no where being a Spurs fan.. But that’s just me

Stan Talouis
The idea of loyalty is gone. Loyalty doesn’t exist in college or the pros. It’s rare to see someone stay with one franchise their entire career. All we can do is bear no ill will toward that player if he does leave. I was a big Jose Reyes fan. I can’t blame him for leaving because the Mets owners and front office are inept. Fans can call him greedy but he did what was best for him.

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Would you let your kids play football?
8 messages

Stan Talouis 
Over the last few years we’ve had celebrities and athletes come out and say that they wouldn’t let their kids play football. Lebron said, Linda Cohn said it, even some great former and current NFL players said they wouldn’t let their kids play football. While the NFL is trying to lead the way in making the game safer on all levels, it’s still a dangerous game so my question to you guys is, would you let your kids play football?Feel free to forward this to Claude, Shayna or anyone else that would have an opinion on this.

Sent from my iPhone


Danny Clase 
Weird question for me. Im not a huge football fan so I have many biases im bringing to the table. Im a huge NBA fan and if studies came out saying it was bad for my child I do not think that would deter me from having my child play the sport. Football seems to be the sport that translate to character later in life when played as a youth. Still the fact is that the hits sustained in football can cause life changing injuries. We all saw Jason Streets fate in “Friday Night Lights…..didn’t WE!

Stan Talouis
I’m still on the fence about Jason Street. Something tells me he was just a weakling. To your point though, I’m a pretty big football fan and I wouldn’t stop my kids from playing it. Times have changed and the game is safer on all levels. We’re learning more and more about concussion and everyday. It used to be that if a guy got a concussion, coaches, the player himself, the medical staff and everyone involved would try to conceal it. Now with the concussion protocols, guys are being taken better care of. It’s even gotten to the point where in college football, if a players helmet comes off, he’s required to sit out the following play.
 

Danny Clase 
hey team this isnt gonna work if its just me and stan
 

Stan Talouis 
Word.

Danny Clase 
this is pointless there hasn’t been any feedback
 

Claude LaRoche
I wouldn’t let my kids play football unless they really wanted to play and even then I wouldn’t want them to play until they are older. The game is inherently dangerous and although it “instills” essential leadership values, I believe a child can get those traits  from other sports. If it were up to me I want a kid to be dumb but able to throw a 110 mph fast ball with control and movement.

Stan Talouis 
Personally I feel like football is one of the few sports that teaches teamwork and leadership. At no point in all my years of playing football was I the best player on the team but if I didn’t do my job, we could lose. No matter how good Peyton Manning is, he still has to trust and believe in 21 other guys. You can’t be a lone wolf the way you can in other sports and that’s a trait I value. There’s a feeling brotherhood and camaraderie that I never felt when I played other sports. The game is very violent but it’s taking steps to become safer. We don’t see as many injuries caused by contact and as we go on, things like that will only improve.

 

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What does the Struggles of old school offenses in todays NBA tell us about the eras?
8 messages

Danny Clase 

Hey guys,
I cant help but think about how bad the Lakers and Knicks look. They both have old school approaches to offense and while the Knicks look better on offense then they have before it still looks like a joke when compared to other offenses not even just the top tier contenders but even teams like the Bucks, Magic teams at the bottom. To take it even a step further the Grizzlies need shooting so there “ground and pound” can only work with modern day advances.
Also remember the 2011 you get your i get mine Heat offense that was typical of the 90s style of play? They were dissected by the Dallas Analytics in the finals. In other words I think the NBA is better off then it was years ago in the 90s. I think the struggles of teams who employ old school offenses directly reflect how flawed the 90s game was. What are your thoughts?

Stanley Talouis 
I think the way talent is spread out is a big factor. While the players now are definitely better than before, more teams have talented players. Back in the 90s and earlier, we had these super teams with tons of talent at the top and the teams mediocre talent at the bottom. The haves and the have nots for lack of a better term. The great teams that employed these old school methods were great because of the level of talent on their teams. Look at this year’s Knicks. They struggle but if they had better players surrounding Carmelo and they had a winning record, we’d be praising Phil, Derek and the triangle.I do agree with you about Memphis though. The game has evolved and it’s still evolving. I also think the NBA is better now than it was before but not because of method or style of play but because of talent and versatility of players around the league. Could you imagine what Lebron and KD could have done in 1987?!?

Danny Clase 
Great point. The triangle we last saw that operated at a high level wasnt that long ago in 2010 with Pau, Kobe and Bynum/Odom. How about teams like the Suns that thrived in spite of roster limitations last season. Perhaps the Laker Knicks struggles are arising as a result of old offense that enhances there roster limitations.

Lets take the Jazz and Hawks. By no means would they be considered a great offense in todays game but if they played that way just 15 years earlier it would be mind blowing. I really feel bad for teams like the Kings/Suns that played a game a little ahead of there time. I think they go so much further in this age that promotes big man shooting and passing. Its time to accept aspects of the euro style. The game now looks more fluid than a lot of the stuff we see on NBAs hardwood classics.
We have this discussion many times on the show I have always said that in my opinion NBA today is better than what many call the golden era of the 90s. Now watching the Kings and Pelicans on a random week night you can see the fluidity of the game whereas if you watch any finals series in the 90s the game looks clunky only reaching moments of beauty when dream teamers would prevail. The 90s put the superstar players on a pedestal whereas i feel todays game rewards team balance interspersed with moments of superstar brilliance, i prefer that but its totally objective. I just take umbrage with the notion that 90s ball is better and there is no dispute.

Stanley Talouis 
I’m sure there were guys just like us in the 90s that watched black and white footage of basketball in the 60s and 70s and said similar things. The game evolves and in 20 years, theres going to be people saying this era of basketball wasn’t as good. Personally, the 90s resonate more with me because I was born in 1984 and thats what I grew up watching. Its really a nostalgic thing. Lets call a spade a spade. Even the Dream Team guys had flaws but like every argument about eras, its purely conjecture. Could Tyson have beaten Ali? I say no, but we’ll never know for sure.

You’re right though, Danny. Basketball these days does seem to flow better. Another reason for this might be due to the specialization of certain players and positions. We’ve gone from the five positions on the court to who knows how many. We’ve got stretch fours, slashers, guys that hit the corner 3 (Shane Battier), perimeter defenders, etc. There are guys that wouldn’t have been in the league 15-20 years ago because they only do one thing well. These days, if a player can do one thing really well, theres a good chance he’ll find a team and if he’s lucky, he’ll land on the right team (the Spurs) and flourish. No one is going to mistake Danny Green for an All-Star type player but he came up big tonight to force OT. Monta Ellis is a sieve defensively but he hit a game winning jumper tonight. Its sort of like baseball changed with relief pitchers. In the 70s, guys like Catfish Hunter had to pitch 3 innings to get a save but now  you have lefty specialists and right specialists and guys being brought in face one batter.
To go back to your original point though, the european style is only going to become more and more prevalent in the league not only because we’re seeing more and more european players come over and have success but because a lot of the old school coaches are leaving the game, opening things up for guys with younger and fresher ideas. Its only a matter of time.

Danny Clase 
But if the basis for preferring something is nostalgia is it not inherently flawed? Should we not be able to look at the product and make a choice. I know it may be an era issue but lets take your Ali Tyson analogy. They never faced each other and never will but I think Ali would have destroyed Tyson just based off knowledge i have of the boxing game.

I think the fact that 90s style offenses can not even tread water today reflects on how flawed the era was. Teams like the late 90s early 2000 Knicks and Heat with Clarence Witherspoon operating at the elbow would have been lottery bound this year. Teams at the margins even have innovations. If the NBA is evolving how can we in good conscious even say the 80s/ 90s was better?

Stanley Talouis 
I don’t think that comparing eras makes one era great and the other flawed. The 90s might be flawed as compared to now but does that mean the 90s weren’t also great? By that logic, the 80s were flawed compared to the 90s, the 70s were flawed compared to the 80s, and so on. The nostalgia thing doesn’t really factor in. We all hold things in higher regard than we should because of nostalgia. I know for a fact Citified is a better ballpark than Shea was but I’ll always love Shea Stadium. The subways are better now than ever but theres always going to be a special place in my heart for the old Redbird trains.

As far as whether 90s style offenses determine how flawed the era was, I think it has more to do with more people understanding how those offenses work and negated their success. Its basic cause and effect. “This offense is successful so lets try and find a way to break it down.” In the NFL, we see this all the time. Tony Sparano made the Wildcat offense popular until teams figured it out. He tried to bring it back with Tebow and the Jets and it didn’t work. That doesn’t make what Sparano did with the Dolphins flawed, it just means the rest of the league caught up and figured it out. I think the same can be said about the NBA.

Lincoln Ricketts 
Compelling arguments on both sides, the NBA is evolving to heights that the former commissioner David Stern couldn’t even imagine. One major difference between both eras, we are in the day and age where coaching has taken second fiddle to actual talent and versatility. For example, Popovich and the Spurs can create a plan for 28 teams in the league and defeat them, but when they reach a team without a consistent offensive scheme such as OKC, they falter and lose. George Karl was praised for letting his 2012-2013 Denver team who won 57 GAMES to do whatever they wanted on offense. The average fan would not see this type of basketball in the 80s/90s. I applaud the fact that this could be a style but it doesn’t win championships.
The Spurs won in 2014 similarity to their previous championships, run through Tim Duncan and let the shooters get open. Miami Heat changed their dynamic in winning championships but they used a style similar to the 96-98 Bulls in which they changed their line up to become smaller by including Toni Kukoc in the 4th quarter. While the 90s have their flaws, the modern game has its own flaws as well. We are in the age of PUBLIC tanking and players are just using their abilities to play the game without actually learning the game properly. We can go back and forth on which era can dominate the other (IE Dream Team vs 2012 Olympic Squad) but we should appreciate 80/90’s basketball because they brought the change to the NBA that we love today.
P.S. Don’t forget, Bob McAdoo was the first stretch 4 to dominate the game, they are a lot more now  but McAdoo was giving the business on a daily rate.

Danny Clase 
My final thought is I dont think ball movement will ever go away. This era has changed the game and i think for the better. Its really tough for me to watch 90s games now because I do not think the game was at its peak. A regular game rivals the creativity of most old school games i watch thats crazy to me. Perhaps i may be wrong but i hope the game never goes back to that style.